11 comments on “Tape #13: Crisis on Infinite Earths #3”

1. Anj says:

   January 28, 2026 at 8:16 am

   Great episode to cover another interesting issue. And Shag too!

   A couple of things. This issue is where knowing the whole series makes me look at this issue differently. Kid Psycho and Nighthawk’s deaths have more gravitas and sheer panel coverage than Wonder Woman’s death in COIE #12. This is why I wonder about pacing in this book. I suppose the first 4 issues are a simmering pot about to boil over.

   I also think the deaths we saw in this issue are relatively minor. DC said ‘characters will die’ and then they give us this issue. I doubt people remembered reserve Legionnaire Kid Psycho (yes he existed before the series) or Nighthawk. Was this just the appetizer for the bigger deaths coming up. Because if it was only D-listers who ‘died’ in the book, readers might have felt cheated.

   And then some comments on the discussions.
   Earth-8: I think I would just do straight up Matrix for Supergirl. Fallen Angel (at least the DC series of the character) hinted strongly that Lee (the fallen angel) was Linda Danvers. Given the religious overtones of the SG series, you could definitely read FA as a continuation of the character without blinking an eye.

   It was Fury from Infinity Inc who became the mother of the next Dream in Sandman, not Dove. (Both sported silver hair at the time so I can see the confusion.) Poor Dove died as the sacrificial lamb in Armageddon 2001 when Hawk was turned into Monarch. She came back in Blackest Night as a zombie and ultimately was resurrected in Brightest Day.

   I do care about Harbinger more than I should. It most likely is because she is hot. There I admitted it.

   Reply
2. Doug Adamson says:

   January 29, 2026 at 1:53 pm

   I don’t think we mention the new Sandman (son of Lyta and Hector) – we mentioned how Dawn was used by Mordru to give birth to baby Hector Hall (bio son of Dawn Granger and Hank Hall – no relation to the other halls).

   What happened was that Dawn was disguised as Lyta but Mordru if my memory serves and Lyta was ALSO pregnant at another point had Hector’s son and then went off into the dreaming.

   So It goes….
   1st Incarnation Hector – Parents Hawkman and Hawkwoman (The Halls)
   2nd Incarnation Hector (Dr Fate) – Parents Hawk (no relation to The Hawks) (Hank Hall – still no relation I mean come on DC could had to have all the Halls be Hawks?) and Dove (Dawn Granger)
   Mordru mixed up Lyta and Dove at some point.
   Lyta and Hector have a child who then goes on to become the new Dream.

   All of this is in the JSA run in the early 00s and frankly I hope Shag manages to wrap his head around it all as I remember at the time there was too much switcheroo nonsense. And I’m not not sure (and it would mean research which I’m allergic to) when Dove/Dawn actually died properly now as Mordru had messed around with Extant/Monarch/Hank Hall

   What I DO remember is that the Dr Fate of Hector Hall was supposed to be the most powerful Dr Fate of all as he was the daughter of a lord of order as well as the son of a lord of chaos or something – actually maybe I don’t remember exactly.

   You know DC should really reboot all this and make it make sense because… Wait a minute Hawkman AND Hawk / Dove (no relations except maybe is Carter a co-dad of Hector so maybe related) OF COURSE it’s messed up because of the DC Hawkman rule after crisis.

   In fact I demand DC has a new Crisis of the Hawks to sort out ALL the Hawks and Doves and Hawkmen and Dr Fate …. Where do I send my letter?

   Reply
   1. Anj says:

      January 30, 2026 at 12:17 pm

      Whoa … I knew nothing of this!
      BANANAS

      Reply
3. Brian Ciufo says:

   January 29, 2026 at 4:59 pm

   I was trying to write something about why alternate earths exist in DC and what is good and what is bad about them. It was too simple of a way to describe a complex issue.

   Alternate histories is a common science fiction trope. DC has used it so many times to tell some great stories and bring back golden age characters and characters acquired from other comic book companies. But most of us who grew up with reboots and alternate earths are now confused and not willing to put in the time to figure out how it changed and all fits together.

   For example, with all of the changes, somehow Jason Todd became everyone’s favorite character on my TikTok feed.

   Jason. Todd.

   The kid voted to be “most likely to get beaten up by the Joker” on a 1-800 line is now a favorite.

   I wonder if I’m on some alternate earth.

   Reply
   1. Martin Gray says:

      January 29, 2026 at 6:50 pm

      It’s Shag on The Monitor Tapes, Dave, Doug, you are spoiling us. Even when he’s totally wrong about kids being confused by parallel worlds – as has been pointed out many times, DC always explained them… Doug is right (it’s noon), as opposed to lots of similar worlds on different vibrational planes, the current business of parallel worlds PLUS more than one Multiverse PLUS a dark Multiverse AND Hypertime, AS WELL AS the Daffy Comtinuum or whatever, THAT’S confusing.

      I must point out that Element Lad had a perm and he was a good guy… well, until he went mad and murdered Monstress. Oh, and billions of aliens I didn’t care about.

      I’ve not read the Crisis novel – why would I want to experience Crisis without George Perez? – but the idea of seeing it through Barry Allen’s eyes sounds weird. I don’t think the Crisis should be seen through the viewpoint of any one character, they could’ve had a different character every issue – except Batgirl, Marv Wolfman wrote a terrible Batgirl, he made her a simpering wreck.

      This issue had the worst cover of the series, just behind number 11 – montage covers rarely work, and when George Perez tries them he’s not playing to his strengths, ie powerful splashes, and great storytelling – a montage is neither. With this one your eye doesn’t settle on anything in particular, nothing makes a big impression, bar possibly the Monitor, and he has hair worse than Ginger Luthor.

      I did buy The Losers Special, being a fan of DC’s war books, and remember being annoyed that the story contradicted Crisis in terms of how they died. Fine, if DC don’t want to include Crisis elements, don’t, but do not bill it as a Crisis crossover, make it a ‘one last hurrah’ comic, with no deaths.

      Hey Shag, Sugar and Spike were in Crisis, number 9, but not in the original Who’s Who.

      Hey Shag, Kid Psycho was indeed a Silver Age character, as Anj says, debuting in 1965’s Superboy #125, I bought it off eBay only the other day.

      ‘If Harbinger was not hot would we care?’ asked Shag. We don’t care, we really don’t.

      Doug suggested Harbinger as the Superman of Earth 8 – given Baby Lyla was floating in the sea when first we met, maybe she was raised by Lori Lemaris and Ron-Al? Give her yellow gloves!

      Shag’s Earth 8 reverie was clever, I would add Zauriel as Hawkman (a particularly rubbish Hawkman). And still on the bird theme, Dawn Grainger Dove would be there too (Sasha and Wiley and Holly would not, please God).

      Arion, Lord of Atlantis #9 also had great snow, just so you know.

      Reply
   2. Doug Adamson says:

      January 30, 2026 at 5:00 am

      One of my friends was convinced that the inflection point of our current cultural environment was the 1-800 call to decide if Jason Todd should be killed or not.

      His position was that the audience shouldn’t get to vote on a characters death because that was a negative thing and encouraged bad influences. They should have killed him off in the story no matter what and then months later have a “should we bring him back or not” vote which at least would be a positive vote or a neutral decision. He was utterly convinced this silly little vote shaped not only the DC Comics, but Hollywood and beyond and that he felt every politician in the US who was old enough read comics at the time should be asked how they voted or would have voted – in the same way asking them if the Punisher is a good guy or a bad guy works.

      He also believed bringing back Jason Todd in the manner they did “Punches of Reality” broke the DC Universe and it’s never recovered.

      Anyway if indeed my friend was right such a cosmic moment could very well be a branch of alternative earths – and sadly we might be on the wrong one! Now all we need to do is douse someone in chemicals and electrocute them and we’ll have someone to get us to the other earths! Looking for volunteers……

      Reply
4. Chris (Play Comics) says:

   January 30, 2026 at 10:02 pm

   Dear Shag,

   I listen and I’m under 40. Obviously your opinions are now invalidated.

   Except when you said Doug was right about something. I’m still cool with that.

   Reply
5. Bucky749 says:

   January 31, 2026 at 2:19 am

   Great show . As to how you got your guest I thought it was on of two ways
   1. You bribed them with back issue for example
   For shag I’m assuming it was either issues of Hardcase or v paper backs .

   Or number 2 you the most powerful of
   All secret weapons cake .

   I joke. It’s not you guys seek up in the middle of the night and one of you threatens your guests with a hagas and mix tag of 70’s tv themes played by twenty piece bag pipe Orchestra on a old boom box and of that’s how you do it . “I know , nothing I see nothing!!”

   Reply
   1. Chris (Play Comics) says:

      February 2, 2026 at 10:36 pm

      Not gonna lie. I’d be a guest for cake. Or pie.

      Reply
6. Frank says:

   January 31, 2026 at 10:09 pm

   So the first time I tried to leave a multi-paragraph comment, partway through listening to the episode, we repeatedly lost power, my computer locked me out entirely for the rest of that day, and I destroyed my body at work. I couldn’t sit in an office chair at home after suffering through necessary work sitting, and spent most of the nights this week passing out in a hot tub of Epsom salt. This did no help to my podcast editing schedule, and now I have to try to reconstruct the previous comment days later with lots of additional “challenge” material. Expect delays elsewhere.

   Re: Wonder Woman feud. I’ll agree to disagree with Doug on Wonder Woman’s potential Crisis contributions, seeing as I’m clearly frustrating him by continuing to bring it up with copious support material, and Doug frustrates me with his poor reading comprehension and omission of said supportive material (because he got caught up trying to relitigate the material in real time without a competent representation.)

   Re: Picking on Shag. Even after my first haircut in years, I figure I still have more hair on my head than the three of you combined, but I’d trade it for Shag’s confidence and charisma. L.L. Irredeemable S.

   Re: The Original Sin of the Post-Crisis Universe. You touched on it briefly, but too briefly for me to elaborate.

   Re: JLDetroit. Look, it was never meant to be the ~JUSTICE LEAGUE~, just another street-level X-Men knock-off squatting on the brand. I like them, and I like the JLI, who could have taken them, but neither were ever the ~JUSTICE LEAGUE~ to me. DC didn’t want a Justice League– they wanted something the kids would buy while maintaining a trademark.

   Re: Atari Force. It was a Star Wars riff written by Gerry Conway and drawn by Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez. In those terms, it’s surprising that it isn’t better loved. I read it a few years ago, and thought it was fine, as I’d already grown up on the heavier, deeper Dreadstar. But I also know a guy for whom it’s such an all-timer that he got his copies custom-bound like Shag with Blue Devil.

   Shag has been sniffing Rex the Wonder Dog turd if he thinks Geo-Force was ever a thing. As noted at the time by Ambush Bug’s absentee drunkard guardian angel, “team books sell.” Like Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, anything X-Men like could launch in the wake of its ascent, and that’s the Outsiders in a nutshell. None of these characters but Batman ever sold on their own, and in a time when Electric Warrior managed 18 issues, the Outsiders barely lasted three years. Geo-Force never sold a single extra copy of a comic to anyone but maybe Brad Meltzer. Also, Shag’s pronounced shock at the death of Pooch, alongside the other members of the Losers, was either fake internet outrage or proof that his Who’s Whoing ain’t doing his retention much good.

   It is painful seeing the Flash franchise trying to absorb COIE into itself, when there should be a lot of Dr. Anj/Supergirl ambivalence about the matter. The Flash’s title was overextended to a numbing degree specifically to sacrifice the Scarlet Speedster to the event. It was actually a much more effective character assassination/nullification than Hal Jordan as Parallax, because they just ground down any enthusiasm anyone had to continue seeing Barry Allen during The Trial. It seemed like there were some heroes fans were ready to let go of, which is why Barry stayed dead for decades, and why the wisdom of his resurrection is still being openly questioned 15 years later. The Flash had a relatively minor role in COIE, not all that dissimilar to Pariah’s, and then he switched to a role like Supergirl’s, except the issue after and with a far more muted response. Kara Zor-El came to a tragic end the resonated throughout comics history thereafter, where Barry Allen was comparatively meh. I think Barry Allen has a better “story engine” than Wally West, but he served a more valuable role to the DC Universe as a patron saint than as a spare speedster. But yeah, make him the “star” of multiple TV shows, cartoons, and movies failing to adequately adapt Crisis on Infinite Earths and devaluing its brand until no one ever will. Make the guy who bartely had more to do than Wonder Woman the focal point and narrator of a story that exists before and after him, outside of his perception. Mighty White of you, Barry, somehow making it all about you, when you were actually just a little seen casualty that happened to resurface thirty years later.

   I’ve been in a position of looking at the DC Multiverse objectively, and recognizing that it helps DC in some ways, with the right properties. You don’t need a whole parallel Earth for “fights in World War II,” and you especially don’t need multiple Ted Grant Wildcat continuities. On the other hand, the best bits of The Marvel Family require that the Fawcett characters be on their own wacky, whimsical Earth-S, where worms talk through speaker boxes and Captain Marvel is truly “The World’s Mightiest Mortal.” I also think that the core DC universe needs a fresh, clean reboot about every twenty years, and it’s never had one. The great thing about the bestselling Absolute continuity is that every bit of it is readily accessible comics from the past year or so, with no prior knowledge necessary. The lousy thing about the Absolute line is that it’s destined to converge with the core DC discontinuity, eradicating its appeal and probably shedding an unhealthy amount of those new/returning readers. Crisis wasn’t a full reboot, but it worked well enough. Zero Hour, less so, and so on with every other quasi-reboot. They couldn’t figure out what the New 52 was going to do while it was launching, with an unfortunate mix of too much and too little continuity carrying over. I gave a lot of the New 52 a try, but there was too much of it to commit whole, and none of it was good enough to keep me on quality alone. If we’re going to have a multiverse, there should be actual, clean, clear, hassle-free jumping-on points, and there shouldn’t be five other concurrent Supermanses to confuse matters.

   As someone who started reading comics in the 1970s, I had the opportunity to follow the DC Comics Multiverse, and I rejected it. I thought having multiple versions of the same characters in different but related realities was redundant. Where are the stakes when Earth-* can be blown up, and that same week, you can just read about the same characters on Earth-$? I guess most of the heroes were on one “real” Earth, except the real Earth was exactly ours, except with a Superboy on it, but then most of the heroes you care about are on Earth-1, which had a different Superboy on it that’s Superman as a boy, and if I weren’t the one typing that run-on sentence, my hands would otherwise be engaged with slapping the writer. And it’s not just DC, as my eyes would glaze over while reading any Squadron Sinister/Supreme entry in OHOTMU. I’m not stupid– I can grasp the concept– I’m just not a big enough dipstick to get off on this onanistic dearth of imagination that offers up Blueberry Superman, Grape Superman, Lemon-Lime Superman– everybody gets their highly specific flavor of Superman! Good riddance!

   So like Shag, what made me embrace the DC Universe was the sense of legacy and progress. At a time when Marvel was at peak creative stagnation, DC was offering a mixed-race Buddhist Green Arrow and an anime-inspired fanboy Green Lantern who’d nixed the dumb weakness to anything colored yellow, and also some other people that weren’t defined by literal color at all. I liked an elderly JSA that had sometimes wayward children who sometimes birthed Dream Kings of their own. Yeah, the guy wearing the hubcap was still called a Flash, but Alan Scott was going through some stuff in a sexy new costume under the name “Sentinel.” But like the multiverse, “legacy” can also turn toxic. Like how all the white dudes from the middle of the last century reclaimed their mantles, but then all the people that had carried on in their name also stuck around. I was looking at The Kids Are All Fight special, where they have two brand new legacies for two generations of Mr. Terrific active simultaneously in hideous costumes with the thinnest conceptual extrapolations for names. “The old Mr. Terrific had “Fair Play” written on his suit, so I shall become Fairplay!” Or better yet, go play in traffic and become– a statistic! Having a pajillion different people acting as slight variations on an heroic legacy is actually worse than a multiverse, because at least the little idiots are spreading out! Instead, they’re making a new incarnation of the Teen Titans out of nothing but the most watered down legacy offerings. I’m not even sure which Superboy is involved, because there are so many concurrent creations of similar look, name, and dress. At this point, the overabundance of legacy is as radioactive to me now as the multiverse was half a century ago. I would like nothing better than for a real Crisis to drown this plague and wash it away to make something worthwhile rise in its wake.

   Despite being a pitiable fool overall, I do think Doug stopped the clock on the Earth-8 Harbinger suggestion. When I was doing my comments version of Siskoid’s Who’s Editing thing, I was just starting the make use of Harbinger when things fell apart on my end. Since I was playing around with the Multiverse, Harbinger was a natural major protagonist to help me address all the happenings on the various Earths, and just generally being a cosmic being available for that scale. I’m not the first to note that the Marvel Universe, and especially Jim Starlin’s corner of it, set the bar for “cosmic” in comics. DC, not so much, with even Starlin copping out on a book actually titled Cosmic Odyssey and just pairing New Gods and super-heroes. Harbinger is genuinely cosmic, but not if you make her single-Earth-bound on a go-nowhere team. I wouldn’t be surprised if Englehart saw the same potential I did in Harbinger, but he also failed to realize it as much as I did.

   On that note, about the only thing I liked about Superman: The Space Age (art excepted) was their approach to Pariah. Just making him an ugly-crying Cassandra for events that fall far short of COIE (looking at War of the Gods) isn’t going to advance that character. Hell, why didn’t Starlin use any of them in Cosmic Odyssey. Dan Jurgens got a lot of mileage out of Waverider, but mostly in events where someone with his power set made sense. There isn’t a lot of Access hate, because he only showed up when both DC and Marvel agreed to it, and because he served his role well enough in intracompany crossovers. Lady Quark acquitted herself well in L.E.G.I.O.N., and Dr. Light has done okay as a JLAdjunct. The problem isn’t creating purpose-built characters for an event so much as finding a suitable role after the event is over.

   Anyway, I like to be methodical, so the first question was when Earth-8 begins? If the multiverse stands, that means Earth-1 and Earth-2 should carry on under their own steam, with the Charlton characters either absorbed into Earth-1 or carrying Earth-4. The literal first projects out of the gate are Angel Love and Lords of the Ultra-Realm, but they’re both narrative dead ends in a super-sphere. Talos of the Wilderness Sea is way later, and another non-starter. We don’t really have a new Superman, Batman, or Captain Marvel yet, so Legends is on Earth-1. An argument could be made that Perez Wonder Woman was the first new incarnation sufficiently different enough to belong on a different Earth, but that’s so boring it would put me to sleep before I could continue here. JLI also spun out of Legends, but these are preexisting Earth-1 characters except for Blue Beetle. Suicide Squad is likewise very E-1 dependent. There’s Watchmen, but if DC properly owned it, that’s Earth-4. Split the original and Chaykin Blackhawks between Earths 1 & 2? The Young All-Stars could be the debut Earth-8 team, but they don’t really fit our vision for that Earth, and would they even exist in an unbroken parallel continuity? Might they just join Commander Steel in E-1WWII? Plus we may not share a vision here, because I don’t think the Strausses depart enough from the Nelsons to warrant multiversity. The Weird was very JLI-centric, so he stays home. Kupperberg Doom Patrol is Earth-1, while Morrison probably rates Earth-8, although I’m inclined to believe in Earth-Vertigo instead. Checkmate was already set up in Vigilante, which might need to be on Earth-4 with Peacemaker. If the Multiverse continues, does the Pocket Universe/Matrix Supergirl even exist? Invasion is on Earth-1, so they get L.E.G.I.O.N. I guess the Dee Tyler Phantom Lady is Earth-2, and Jack Knight? With the close ties to Vandal Savage, I suppose Time Masters also moves to E-2.

   My starting point is the Elemental Firestorm, and the Earth-8 Vigilante called Wild Dog. We’re a few years out from Atlantean Power Girl, but she’ll arrive eventually. Evil Amethyst? Do we get the Doug Rice redesigned Manhunter? I don’t think so, because Millennium needs too many Earth-1 elements, which may trap Harbinger and the New Guardians there. Action Comics Weekly’s Secret Six? Maybe they can fight Wild Dog, but who cares? Will Peyton Starman tracks, as an unrelated concept that overwrites a legacy. I don’t think the new Dove is distinctive enough to drag/replicate Hawk on another world, and anyway, the boy/girl team from the one millennial mini-series makes more sense. Somehow, Haywire is in-continuity, especially because I think he shares a villain with the Jared Stevens Fate. Helena Bertinelli Huntress. Aquaman of the Dolphins. Hawkworld no longer wrecks continuity. El Diablo.

   Crud. Now that I think about it, Post-Crisis Superman and Wonder Woman do have to be on Earth-8, because all that Krypton lore got flushed, and all their villains got re-jiggered in absence of legacy. So businessman Lex Luthor, Milton Fine Brainiac, robot Metallo, Ares, Minerva Cheetah, Silver Swan II. Superman-8 has to run into the Eradicator and Mongul, so Reign of the Supermen happens there. Matrix is here, but not Fallen Angel, because Peter David kept the rights. Probably the revised Lobo? Maxima. No need yet for a Batman or Robin though, so Huntress is the new hero of Gotham, battling the likes of Anarky and Scarface. No Flash yet. Oh hell, Guy Gardner must be Green Lantern-8, so he’ll do the heel turn over Coast City’s destruction. Makes more sense, actually. And since Iron Munro is a supporting character in Damage, the Young All-Stars and The Baron of Earth-8 do make the trip after all. Oh hey– the Post-Crisis Martian Manhunter is also on Earth-8. Given J’onn J’onzz’s fiery temper in the Silver Age, maybe he’s the Guy of Earth-1 JLI?

   That gets me through all of Earth-8 in the ’80s. I may come back with more later. I did not recover all that I lost, but obviously added more in its place. Reclaiming my time to a small degree, I will not proof this comment, syntax and spelling be damned.

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   1. DC Dave says:

      February 20, 2026 at 11:50 pm

      Frank…we could have a whole couple of episodes with your thoughts on Earth-8. Let’s put this thread sometime soon.

      Reply