The Second Tape: DC Dave and Doug Adamson play Tape #2, which looks at …
The Flash
With co-host Jeremy (aka Yakk0) from the TransMissions Podcast.
2:06 – Crisis News
5:46 – Introduction of Guest Host
20:20 – The Flash discussion
59:51 – Earth-15
1:06:12 – Wrap up with Jeremy
1:10:46 – Listener Feedback
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Transmissions Podcast
https://www.transmissionspodcast.com/
Back Issue! #195 – Crisis on Infinite Earths 40th Anniversary Retrospective
https://twomorrows.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=133&products_id=1823
Marv Wolfman 13th Dimension Interview:
https://13thdimension.com/why-marv-wolfman-didnt-like-the-ending-to-crisis/
George Perez and Alex Ross Crisis Poster:
https://www.facebook.com/alexrossart/posts/pfbid029ZYLsLg6e7LbwZTpf2V2v2EJq6NjdgvSyw6ACgPEQ2NZXWagKz4veXTJebQBm5gCl
Music: “Achilles” Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
I knew hanging around the satellite for one whole month would pay off! Thanks for another great episode, more fascinating insights, and for highlighting my previous comment in your “Notes from the Multiverse.”
-Jeremy was a very fun guest, and I’ll definitely consider giving the Transmissions pod network a listen or four, especially “Alt Mode.” The Transformers Ultimate Guide was actually my very next purchase at the store where I bought the Crisis TPB, so this episode was full of unusually geeky kismet for me. G1 for life, long live Orion Pax (at least as long as Hasbro will allow him)!
-That stretch of Pre-Crisis issues with Flash on trial were collected in, weirdly enough, “Showcase Presents: The Trial of the Flash.” One of the more outstanding SP volumes I came across, and yet, one of the most disappointing reading experiences I ever had with that line. I came in expecting something similar to the “Seinfeld” finale with loads of Rogue/supporting character cameos, sort of a last hurrah of Barry’s career before the Crisis shut everything down. It was satisfying to see him finally outsmart Thawne and briefly retire with Iris, but needless to say, the journey to get there wasn’t exactly fulfilling. (The Big Sir cameo from Blue Beetle’s book is great, so that’s one point in it’s favor.) Also, wow, only one month that B&I were newlyweds? Something something Bob Eubanks?
-Regarding the Uncle Ben/Bucky/Barry joke (sometimes including Jason Todd), one brief note from the gaming realm: Marvel Snap just added an Uncle Ben character card with 1 health and 2 power. If Ben is destroyed in battle, the player gets a Spider-Man card added to their field. On one hand, kinda messed up, but on the other, fairly accurate to what Amazing Fantasy #15 depicted, and it does get us that much closer to the Snap fandom’s borderline lustful dream of having Aunt May as a playable card. (Which would have to be her Galactus herald persona of Golden Oldie, right?)
-Whoo, the “Waiting for Doom” guy as Tape 3’s guest! Speaking of pod plugs, the Siegel and Shuster Society pod is joining my rotation of regularly listened to comic pods, and their coverage of Golden Age Supes couldn’t have come at a better time for me, considering I’ve been working through “DC Finest: Superman: The First Superhero” since Christmas. The six-month stretch of “Action” with Ultra-Humanite escaping death and jumping into different bodies is a quite surreal read; dare I say I find him a more intimidating arch villain than Luthor?! Also, I eagerly anticipate the Golden Age Supes episode.
-I very nearly forgot to second your praise for the forthcoming Back Issue, uh, issue covering most things Crisis. Twomorrow’s flagship mag has become one of my favorite reads every other month, covering familiar characters, series, and creators with amazing depth and exposing me to new ones I can get excited about, all from an era I wish I could’ve experienced firsthand. The articles on the lead-up to the big event and the aftershocks it generated will no doubt be my favorites, but I look forward to leaving a brief review of the rest in some future comment. BTW, don’t pass up the “Hey, Mister” issue covering an avalanche of characters with that masculine moniker. Mr. Freeze might be the cover boy, but the real star for my money would be Mr. Fantastic, due to taking his “First Steps” into the MCU in a few months with the rest of his “First Family.” Also looking forward to the story on the manicial Mr. Mind, his own insatiable appetite partly responsible for the post-“Infinite Crisis” structure of the DCU. Gotta love a tiny worm with an old transistor radio being one of the most oddball archnemeses ever conceived for “our little genre,” as I believe Craig “Mr. Silver Age” Shutt used to say!
I nearly forgot to applaud your brilliant treatise of Earth 15! I find the trope of giant moai heads suddenly coming to life and walking around simply fascinating to look at, and this Earth delivers that in spades. I can understand why it was never revisited, but I bet it could’ve been a great place to research for the Challengers of the Unknown, if they’d ever gone more heavily into multiversal investigations.
And thanks for the story behind the “Brick Crisis” name. I can’t say I’ve ever been heavily invested in the Lego community, aside from enjoying the recent animated films, trying to follow the mindset of contestants on “Lego Masters,” playing half a decade of TT tie-in videogames, following Bionicle continuity (via the “Chronicles” chapter books) until the “Mata Nui is a ‘Krakoa knockoff’ living island guy” twist weirded me out of it, and actually building something every other decade (the most recent being a forest ranger ATV that was a magazine incentive). I do look forward to whatever you’ve got planned for the bricky side of the pod network all the same. Excellent “Flash of Two Worlds” diorama, that cover has never looked so adorable! And shout-out to TwoMorrows mag “BrickJournal,” just for the heck of it.
‘Also, wow, only one month that B&I were newlyweds?’
Well, not quite, they’d been married for years – I think it was Dave who pointed that on the podcast – it was just that they had only a month together after being reunited… Barry with a new face, Iris in that corpse body. Romantic!
Right, due to timey-wimey future logic, that could be untold years between Flash 350 and their next appearance in Crisis. Probably the best “blessing in disguise” of any couple in that awkward gap of time.
Sadly not Ben, Barry’s thinking in CoIE #3 that he’s been there just a month. So sad!
Hi Ben! Thanks for listening, and more comments. Next episode does feature Paul from Wait for Doom, and we couldn’t be happier. Glad you’re looking forward to it. I will equally shout out “Siegel and Shuster Society Podcast” – I came across them in time to hear their first episode. As a lifelong Superman fan – it was fantastic. I am 100% subscribed.
I will have to seek out that Ultra-Humanite arc. I love GA Superman stories, but it’s been a very long time since I’ve read any.
Beyond just Superman, I love the Marvel Family. So Mr. Mind is a favorite of mine as well.
I didn’t think I’d enjoy Ultra as much as I have been reading through his first few appearances, but he brings a heckuva lot to the table. First point might seem fairly obvious, but it bears emphasizing: here is the first major obstacle Superman can’t simply smash through or intimidate into lawful obedience, a persistent opponent returning from seeming death on countless occasions. That’ll become the norm for most super-villains eventually, but this early in the game, it’s a radical complication that evolves the genre considerably.
Ultra is likewise planning countermeasures against Our Hero in a fashion no ordinary foe has to that point. He’s got a complex corporation-esque structure of criminal organization a bit more sophisticated than the Mafia knockoffs we’ve seen thus far. He’s setting up distraction crimes that keep Clark away from the real heist (surefire story fodder for the next century and arguably Supes’ true greatest weakness; he’s invulnerable, sure, but he can’t be everywhere at once!). He even employs certain green rays that greatly weaken the Man of Steel for brief periods, a good few months before the formal introduction of kryptonite on the radio show or in that one Siegel and Shuster “lost story,” “The K-Metal from Krypton.” All of this on top of the trademark body-swapping! I especially love that he has developed the technology to raise an ancient Atlantis-like city out of the ocean and reverse-engineer its obscure secrets for his own fiendish ends, yet this is barely noted in the story in which it happens! Leave it to S&S to formulate the ultimate pulp villain, then time and slightly different takes on the same concept (cough, Luthor, cough) to doom him to the sandbox of history.
Great first two episodes gents! To be honest, I was expecting an issue by issue index type show, but I think this novel approach will serve the show much, much better. And this episode proves it. You are off to an excellent start!
As a Flash fan Pre-Crisis, I thought I’d give you my perspective on how Barry’s death impacted me. I started buying Flash regularly when I was 6 years old, around the time Carmine Infantino returned to the book as artist. My first issue was actually #300 (August 1981), the big anniversary issue. I bought the book as regularly as newstand distribution would allow for the next several years, but the trial took it’s toll on me, and I began skipping issues, hoping that eventually the storyline would just end. It didn’t. i finally gave up with #347. I agree with Doug that the book was now no longer a super hero book, but more of a weird soap opera meets Perry Mason combo. I have often wondered, if this storyline was sinking sales…why didn’t they just end it? Pull Cary Bates off the book? He’d been writing it for over 10 years! Give someone else a shot!
I bought Crisis beginning with issue #1, and I tried to keep up monthly, but again, the dreaded newstand foiled me a time or two. One of those issues was #8. So I missed the Flash heroically sacrificing himself, but it didn’t take long in reading the other issues to realize he was most likely dead. I don’t think I picked up #8 until after the series ended, and saw Wally become the Flash. I was sad, because after Batman, Robin/Nightwing and Superman, Flash was my favorite DC hero. But I also couldn’t argue with the way he went out, even then. And somehow, even at age 10, I realized it was a mercy killing in many ways. The unwanted trial storyline had literally ran him into the ground (see I can make puns too!).
Speaking of Wally, despite what Wolfman and Perez set up here, did you know that there were plans to replace him as Flash, despite the ending of Crisis #12?
Have you heard of the tragedy of Mackenzie Ryan?
In Keith Dallas’ excellent Flash Companion (published by TwoMorrows), he and John Wells explain that Mackenzie Ryan was the character pitched by Marv and Len Wein as a replacement Flash. He was a total revinvention of the Flash concept, with no super speed, but instead energy powers. Much like the Tangent Flash that came later, in that regard. He was a STAR Labs technician and close friends with regular DC supporting character Jennette Klyburn. Wolfman even name-dropped Mackenzie in New Teen Titans (Vol. 2) #19, when she places a call to “Mac” telling him she’ll be late. She even name drops his daughter Jamie, which would have been another wrinkle for this Flash. He was a single dad! The only real info released at the time about this was in a piece in Amazing Heroes Preview Special #2 (1986) with some insight into the character by proposed editor Alan Gold. That piece was written by…Mark Waid! Apparently DC entertained many pitches for a new Flash seires, and for a brief time, this was the front runner, before a series picking up with Wally!
Given how rubbish the original characters created for Crisis that Marv intended to be used across the new DCU were – Harbinger, Lady Quark and weeping Willie Pariah – it’s probably a blessing that proposed Flash never emerged, Chris.
Chris – we are honored to have you as a listener! Thanks for tuning in.
Another fun episode and definitely think that this is a fascinating way of breaking the story down before we get to an index piece (if we ever get there).
I have done my fair share of Crisis research and it was clear they wanted it to be splashy, they wanted it to feel important, and the best way to do that was to kill off people. The ‘Death List’ was a known phenomenon.
The Flash seemed like an obvious choice. His book was flagging. The ‘he started the Silver Age and the Multiverse’ hook was a great added wrinkle. And you had the built in successor so no worries about the IP/trademark expiring.
For me, I do think that seeing the Flash as a vision in the early issues built up the tension. That famous panel of the withering face and multiple panels as he dies has been homaged a bunch. So it felt powerful. But it was coming right on the heels of Supergirl’s death and so will always be compared. Supergirl dies saving Superman, in hand to hand combat with the villain, and almost won. Flash dies blowing up a big gun. Great for sure. But, at least for me, just not as epic. I wonder if it would have felt more impactful if those two deaths, clearly the ‘biggest’ in Crisis, were separated a bit.
Love the show and discussion! Congrats!
Well done to Doug and DC Dave and Jeremy on another lovely listen. I’ve never seen a Transformers comic or film or cartoon, but I hear they’re fun.
I was also a Flash fan around this time, having been buying religiously since around #250, which is when DC Comics started appearing reliably in UK newsagents. I adored the stories of Cary Bates, Irv Novick and Frank McLaughlin under editor Julie Schwartz and loved the very different in tone ‘Starsky and Hutch’ run sparked by Schwartz’s successor Ross Andru. If memory serves we had Len Wein editing for a while but eventually Cary Bates got to be editor as well as writer – it’s never a good thing when the writer isn’t being overseen, that way lies rambling (by #350 the book was so wordy it needed two letterers). But I really did enjoy the soap, which didn’t come at the expense of superhero action – Bates was clever in finding ways to give us action while Barry was in court (and heck, the actual Trial-labelled issues only lasted 11 issues, from #340).
The thing with the Professor Zoom death aftermath/trial story was that it was never meant to last a couple of years, but after Bates began writing it the news came down from On High that Barry was to die on Crisis, so Bates thought he may as well extend things.
What I really hate is this post-Crisis idea that Barry Allen was boring – OK, he was an Everyman, but he led a series for nearly 150 issues, was a longtime Justice League… and a comics fan. He was a smart guy, and I find that entertaining… also, a huge comics fan, with a garage full of old books. What’s not to love? Plus, dull guys don’t snag journalists…
I disagree with, I think it was Jeremy, who said Barry Alan hadn’t been very heroic for the couple of years before the Crisis – yes, he killed Professor Zoom, but he had to do it to save Fiona’s life. And he kept on going, and saving the day, despite all the angst heaped on him. If only we could all be so heroic.
Doug, that’s a bit unfair about the last year of the Flash not mentioning Crisis, as Dave noted, the Crisis didn’t hit* until Barry had spent a month in the 30th century with Iris, so his pre-move-set comic could hardly reflect the event.
Yes, Wally was the fourth sidekick in terms of the big DC heroes, predating Aqualad by a few months – but that made him every bit as Silver Age as Aqualad.
I was reading Crisis as it came out, and all DC lettercolumns and various fanzines – people did care that Barry was dead. They appreciated it from the story point of view, but there was sadness.
* Did ANYONE understand the idea that the Crisis was happening in all eras at once? If that were the case we’d have dinosaurs and future monsters invading every comics panel since the Golden Age, and it’d still be going km.
By the way, thinking on, maybe ‘Lyla’ CAN be pronounced ‘Leela’, given the way the ‘Y’ in ‘ Yvonne’ works! My apologies.
It’s okay we’ll use the animated film version pronunciation …. oh wait.
Darn we’ll just have to stick to the Arrowverse version!